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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |

Atticus Fynch
346
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Posted - 2012.01.18 13:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hauling is a bonafide profession and an essential part of EVE. If you as the client want to petition the populace of EVE by way of public contracts to haul your goods then you must pay a fixed % of your required collateral as reward.
I suggest that all PUBLIC courier contracts have an automatic 7.5% fixed reward rate. If you want to add more to your contract...fine, but you can not go below 7.5%
Private contracts can continue to be whatever they want.
This will encourage more Hauling Corps to be created as well. G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |

Atticus Fynch
349
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Posted - 2012.01.18 16:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
ShipToaster wrote:Atticus Fynch wrote:Hauling is a bonafide profession and an essential part of EVE. If you as the client want to petition the populace of EVE by way of public contracts to haul your goods then you must pay a fixed % of your required collateral as reward.
I suggest that all PUBLIC courier contracts have an automatic 7.5% fixed reward rate. If you want to add more to your contract...fine, but you can not go below 7.5%
Private contracts can continue to be whatever they want.
This will encourage more Hauling Corps to be created as well. Stupid idea. Needs moved to F&I where it can die the death it deserves.
It IS in F&I, numb-nuts. G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |

Atticus Fynch
350
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Posted - 2012.01.18 18:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
Nestara Aldent wrote:If someone dont wanna pay the price you want, dont haul it! I agree hauling isnt worthwhile profession because of ppl who put miserable rewards in the contracts, but I dont think forcing a particular fixed price is the correct solution.
Corps such as Red Frog dont need fixed prices to work.
You said it yourself, hauling in its present state is not a worthwhile profession. My suggestion will make it one without freelance cargo pilots having to settle for crumbs for their work at ridiculous collateral rates.
It will also cut down on scams aimed at collecting colateral with no intentions (on the part of the contract maker) of having a succesful delivery. G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |

Atticus Fynch
351
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Posted - 2012.01.18 19:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
Monty Kvaran wrote:Supply, meet demand....
The correct price for a courier contract is the minimum price necessary to get a courier to promptly service your contract. Good contracts are snatched up, bad contracts remain, resulting in the appearance that no one is paying a reasonable rate on the contracts. Eve is a sandbox, don't try to have CCP exempt your preferred job from the sandbox.
Not so. I am always scanning public shipping contracts and for the most part they are sh-t. On rare occasion you will find a gem that pays well. I am asking CCP for balance. The same way they added tax to NPC corps. The balance is a percentage of the required collateral. Sounds fair to me. G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |

Atticus Fynch
351
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Posted - 2012.01.18 20:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:
No, the collateral is the insurance the originator of the contract has that you won't steal his stuff. That is immaterial to the money you should be paid to haul it. That actually comes from the number of jumps, the route you have to take, etc.
True, however the same security can be obtained by having the cargo you want shipped in a secure container. I've never tried it, but I believe it's doable, and if not then having unbreakable crates used for hauling should become a standard in EVE hauling. That would eliminate the possibility of theft.
On the flip side of the coin, there are those that use shipping contracts to scam. One of my earliest expereinces was of accepting a contract at 200mil collateral with a 100mil payoff to be delivered into null. I made it to the destination but found the station would not allow me to dock. That was before the shipping contracts feature was revamped to prevent this from happening.
You would think I would have the contents of the cargo to cover my loss....NO!! The cargo turned out to be a small empty container.
Shipping scams still exist in various forms. Some high collateral contracts are designed with the intent that the cargo never make it to its destination...especially in low/null.
Since there is always the possibility that a shipping contract will be delivered, having a fixed reward rate will make the scams a little less profitable for the scammer and hopefully reduce them in the public market.
G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |

Atticus Fynch
353
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Posted - 2012.01.18 22:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:This won't work as you intend it to. More people will put more of the hauling loads on their alts and/or friend's alts and/or dedicated hauling corps so they can avoid paying the "fixed" tax... pretty much the same way people make "shell corps" to avoid the NPC tax. Savvy people (i.e. the people with the ISK) will ALWAYS find ways around this to avoid paying the tax at all costs. Newbies (i.e. people with limited ISK) will have a harder time.
I disagree becuase people are iinherently lazy and the deeper their pockets, the more likely they are to spend for a service. If they could do all this hauling with alts, they would already. and newbs do their own hauling anyway.
This does give hauling corps more teeth though, and that is a good thing becuase it actually makes "hauling" an eve profession instead of a "hobby" of sorts they way it is treated now.
G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |

Atticus Fynch
354
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Posted - 2012.01.19 10:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
ShipToaster wrote:Ai Shun sums up what the point against you is.
Collateral is only to stop you stealing my stuff or pretending you lost it. The distance it needs to be moved is the determining factor for the payment.
Lets break this down:
Collateral is to cover the loss/theft of the shipment.
Reward is payment for the shipment.
You are saying that reward is based on the number of jumps/distance the cargo pilot has to cover. OK, but consider this...
IRL, wouldnt you pay more to have a ton of gold moved one mile/km vs a ton of cotton balls moved the same distance? Yes you would. Why? Because of the value of the cargo. RL insurance comes into play. Weight of cargo also comes into play...but we dont have these options in EVE becuase EVE is not RL.
So the only option is to reward based on collateral. In other words if you feel your cargo is worth 1 billion isk, then as a cargo pilot I expect payment proportional to the value of the item you are entrusting me with regardless of haul distance.
As a customer you are concerned with the shipment being done. As a cargo pilot, I am concerned with the distance. Customers should not be concerned with distance and if you are, then perhaps you should use the cheapest method avaialble...ship it yourself.
Based on the hauling/distance model you presented let me ask, are you willing to pay per jump if all you are shipping is a skillbook worth just 1mill isk over 30 jumps? No you wouldnt. To save money you would then claim the job is based on cargo value and not haul distance.
It's still the same distance to the cargo pilot regardless of cargo even though you may feel the job should be much less based on the value of your cargo in that scenario. It is still the same amount of work even if your cargo is 100mill isk in value over 30 jumps.
You cant have it both ways by saying reward is based on jump distance for short hauls of expensive cargo, then turn around and say it's based on cargo value when it is a long haul with cheap cargo. These are the two beliefs when it comes to cargo contracts.
The pilot loses out in both scenarios.
A fixed percentage based on collateral pays the cargo pilot for the work and it is FAIR. G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |

Atticus Fynch
354
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Posted - 2012.01.19 18:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
Manfred Macx wrote: This comparison does not work. You are not taking into account that, in EVE, the courier has to pay this huge amount of collateral, which probably is close or the same as the value of the shipment. Then I, the client, does not need any insurance. I don't care how much risk you take when hauling my stuff, since I'm already covered for theft, pirates or what have you.
In EVE it makes sense to reward the hauler based on the time it takes to haul and the size of the shipment.
Keep in mind that the shipper/shipping company, IRL would have his own insurance to cover any unforseen losses. We dont have that in EVE. Only the client is covered by way of collateral. This idea is to balance things out for the cargo pilot as well, not just the client. As it stands now, the shipper is at a disadvantage while the client is covered 100%. The present state of hauling contratcs also leaves the shipper open for scams.
ShipToaster wrote:Atticus Fynch wrote:A fixed percentage based on collateral pays the cargo pilot for the work and it is FAIR. You see it as fair but I see it as no one using public hauler services. It is that simple. I would switch to private contracts with Red Frog as they are exempt from your massive jump in fees. The next step would probably be to advertise for hauling corps on the forums and probably pay less than I do now.
And how is that a bad thing? I would love to see competition and more hauling corps come into existence fighting for your hauling needs. More hauling corps will be formed and as I said before, people wil still use public hauling services.
I only know of Red Frog and PUSH. In all of EVE there should be dozens of hauling corps fighting for your business. My idea will make it so. Moreso, it may actually carve out hauling territories in New Eden and even prompt territory wars by hauling corps. Fun times dude, and just becuase hauling has now become competetive and profitable.
G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |

Atticus Fynch
360
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Posted - 2012.01.20 04:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
This does not need to be added to the game. The courier contract system is fine "as-is" and the fact that there are at least (2) full-time hauling companies (PUSH and Red Frog Freight) shows that it's working. Not to mention the dozens of smaller haulers who survive on networking with customers and have private clientele.
As I've said before, private contratcs can continue to be whatever they want. The fixed percentage is for public contracts. The fact that there are only two main hauling corps in EVE shows it's not working. G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |

Atticus Fynch
361
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Posted - 2012.01.20 06:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
ShipToaster wrote:I dont get what your problem here is.
No problem. I just disagree with your conclusion on the matter for reasons already stated. G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |

Atticus Fynch
362
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Posted - 2012.01.20 19:09:00 -
[11] - Quote
Zaxix wrote:Not supported.
If you don't like the pay available, start or join a hauling corp like Red Frog].
Red Frog has been mentioned here ad nauseum. Do you realize that with a fixed public percentage requirement, private corps now have a measuring stick to use to offer cheaper services. 7%, 6%, 5%...so on.
Red Frog does not own EVE and if so then there is a problem becuase they have now establsihed a monopoly in a game that shouldnt have them. I'd rather see 10, 20, 30 "Red Frog "corps fighting for your attention. With the current system as it stand, that will never happen.
Fango Mango wrote:Quote:The only people resisting this idea are those that exploit the current system and expect a cargo pilot to take 1 -5 mill in reward for putting up 1 billion in collateral. Yeah..that's real fair.  If you feel that the reward is not enough, then don't accept the contract. Someone else will . . .
Yes someone else will accept becuase there is a sucker born every minute (newbs) and EVE is full of predators and nothing will ever change nor should anything ever change becuase -I am doing just fine with the way things are and if you are not then HTFU and dont expect CCP to hold your hand blah blah blah...-
I have that reply memorized already. 
My suggestion makes for a better game by balancing risk/reward in the hauling field. Again (for the millionth time), private contracts can continue to be what they want...so what is the issue? Red Frog will continue have their clients and you can have yours. What more you may even have more customers with this implementation if you can beat %7.5 and more hauling corps will open because they now have a target (%7.5) to beat. This suggestion provides for new/inexpereinced players as well as the freelance hauler not interested in joing a corp. G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |

Atticus Fynch
362
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Posted - 2012.01.20 19:34:00 -
[12] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Atticus Fynch wrote: Red Frog does not own EVE and if so then there is a problem becuase they have now establsihed a monopoly in a game that shouldnt have them. I'd rather see 10, 20, 30 "Red Frog "corps fighting for your attention. With the system as it stand, that will never happen.
RF does not have a monopoly - otherwise how do you explain PUSH? At best, they have a duopoly. Why are they so successful and why do they get so much business? - Good word of mouth advertising and reputation. - A standard fee schedule, which means I can predict my shipping expenses - Professional level of service (no drama, both have good completion times, etc) There is no "establsihed" monopoly in shipping, only the lack of effort for someone else to attempt to out-compete RF and PUSH. In short, there's no problem here with the courier market - you just need to be smart about which contracts you accept, pay close attention to routing / over-inflated collaterals and other obvious traps.
Oh and a duopoly is good?
One side here will always say there is no problem with the current system....the winning side. Everyone else can eat cake, right?
Apparently those opposed feel they have something to lose otherwise they wouldnt be so vocal in their protests. So just come out and say what it is that you are afraid of losing.
-Your win/win situation of exorbitant collateral followed by a pathetic reward? -Or is it the security of knowing your over-inflated collateral will make a nice cushion for you in case the pilot is ganked? -Or perhaps every shipping contract you make is like a lottery where you hope (or know by planning) eventually he will be ganked giving you a nice payoff?
Those are not fair practices and places the freelance hauling pilot at a greater loss than there needs to be regardless of how smart he needs to be in his choices. This will most definitely cut down on the number of garbage/scam hauling contracts out there as well. G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |

Atticus Fynch
362
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Posted - 2012.01.20 21:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
Zaxix wrote:
This all kind of pointless though; CCP is never going to institute anything like set pricing.
We shall see.
G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |

Atticus Fynch
402
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Posted - 2012.01.24 13:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
LeHarfang wrote: Now that i think about it, one problem with this is that it could pretty much kill the shipping business in eve since it's so easy to haul your own stuff for free if there is no haulers to haul your stuff. No need for supply if there is no demands.
Investing time to train up for haulers and freighters is not something people with pew-pew agendas want to do. That is why there will always be a need for haulers. As of this post, the public hauling business is dying. Mainly because there is a monopoly taking place by a couple of shipping corps.
So not only are public contracts getting fewer and fewer but what remains are the dregs of contracts asking the most collateral for the fewest pay over 20-30+ jumps.
A change is sorely needed.
G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |

Atticus Fynch
403
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Posted - 2012.01.24 14:40:00 -
[15] - Quote
Porkita wrote: A fixed rate is going to make more rewarding couriers probably less rewarding, especially on long routes, because it dictates what something should be.
A fixed rate is a minimum requirment. if you feel a shipment should pay more, then you can add more. You just cant go below the minimum rate. Again, private contratcs can continue to be whatever you want. G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |
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